Sep 9, 2023·edited Sep 9, 2023Liked by Sean Singer
Shortly before I went into my MFA program, a wise friend of mine said "If you're sitting in a 10-15 person workshop and you have one or two people who really seem to be helpful, who really get what you're doing, that's a fantastic workshop." Of course, if you followed all of the suggestions given on any single poem in a workshop, it would, essentially, disappear. I think the idea of "moral drift" is a remarkable one, and that your last paragraph is maybe the best thing in this post.
This article so perfectly lists helpful and unhelpful ways to respond to poems, and the ethics for creative writing teachers are brilliant, evoking compassion with rigor, and despising laziness, which often is cruel in workshops, simplifying student working not working to see the poetry in it. Thank you for this.
I have certainly been guilty of thinking almost all of your listed "bad responses", and have occasionally let them slip out as well *blushing* As for your "good responses" ... despite having attended many workshops I have very rarely come across any of these! I should clarify that all of my workshops have been outside academic institutions, mostly via Brooklyn Poets and Poets House.
I have loved participating in these workshops for one simple reason you didn't address - it's the only opportunity I have to witness how several other readers (who generally enjoy poetry) react to my poems. It's actually the best fun to receive 4/5 responses to a poem, even if they are people who don't know what they're talking about. In fact, I PREFER these readers' responses as they are generally honest and unexpected. I write very strange and "difficult" poems, that's just my way, and I realised very quickly that no workshop is really helping me to perfect them. I use the workshops as "reaction labs" for my truly strange ideas, and I've found that honest reactions about what readers enjoyed (or not) is my favourite part of the writing process.
My best memories of some workshops:
One participant drew a sketch of an image contained in one of my poems. Just because she got a kick out of it, and not because she "understood" it.
An opaque poem I wrote that I thought would only find a home in a specific reader's world was adored by the most unexpected reader. It really amazed me.
The one time I wrote an "easier" poem a couple of readers were truly so excited and relieved, and it made me rethink (albeit briefly hehe) my particularly odd writing style. I have them in mind as I write, even years later.
Someone saw something in the subject matter of my poem that had never occurred to me, and yet once they mentioned it I saw it too and I realised I had indeed subconsciously been writing it.
You meet the most interesting and generous people in these workshops. But yeah ... I don't think they help to improve your poems. But then, that's not necessarily the goal. Ostensibly it is, but there's a lot of other stuff going on that's about writing in a community, close reading each other's words, and an intimate sharing of experiences.
I do truly detest giving others feedback, mostly because it's really tough and time-consuming, and I don't think I've helped many other writers (despite my very best efforts). I just don't know what I'm doing. It's best done by a professional who works in the way you specify in your article.
Many many thanks for inspiring me today with this discussion.
I've been throwing some of my poems through AI to see what it thinks of them. ChatGPT is pretty bad, but Claude AI is a decent assistant. There's a Bill Hader YouTube clip where he says people are great at telling you what doesn't work in your writing, but bad at telling you how to fix it. Claude AI is the same. Is it as good as my best reader friends? No. Is it better than a lot of students I took workshops with? Yes, because it tends to notice patterns in my poems that I may have missed and tells me where I could be more clear. And while it is biased towards narrative sometimes, it never really gives feedback like your "bad" list.
Shortly before I went into my MFA program, a wise friend of mine said "If you're sitting in a 10-15 person workshop and you have one or two people who really seem to be helpful, who really get what you're doing, that's a fantastic workshop." Of course, if you followed all of the suggestions given on any single poem in a workshop, it would, essentially, disappear. I think the idea of "moral drift" is a remarkable one, and that your last paragraph is maybe the best thing in this post.
This article so perfectly lists helpful and unhelpful ways to respond to poems, and the ethics for creative writing teachers are brilliant, evoking compassion with rigor, and despising laziness, which often is cruel in workshops, simplifying student working not working to see the poetry in it. Thank you for this.
This is such a helpful article, thank you!
I have certainly been guilty of thinking almost all of your listed "bad responses", and have occasionally let them slip out as well *blushing* As for your "good responses" ... despite having attended many workshops I have very rarely come across any of these! I should clarify that all of my workshops have been outside academic institutions, mostly via Brooklyn Poets and Poets House.
I have loved participating in these workshops for one simple reason you didn't address - it's the only opportunity I have to witness how several other readers (who generally enjoy poetry) react to my poems. It's actually the best fun to receive 4/5 responses to a poem, even if they are people who don't know what they're talking about. In fact, I PREFER these readers' responses as they are generally honest and unexpected. I write very strange and "difficult" poems, that's just my way, and I realised very quickly that no workshop is really helping me to perfect them. I use the workshops as "reaction labs" for my truly strange ideas, and I've found that honest reactions about what readers enjoyed (or not) is my favourite part of the writing process.
My best memories of some workshops:
One participant drew a sketch of an image contained in one of my poems. Just because she got a kick out of it, and not because she "understood" it.
An opaque poem I wrote that I thought would only find a home in a specific reader's world was adored by the most unexpected reader. It really amazed me.
The one time I wrote an "easier" poem a couple of readers were truly so excited and relieved, and it made me rethink (albeit briefly hehe) my particularly odd writing style. I have them in mind as I write, even years later.
Someone saw something in the subject matter of my poem that had never occurred to me, and yet once they mentioned it I saw it too and I realised I had indeed subconsciously been writing it.
You meet the most interesting and generous people in these workshops. But yeah ... I don't think they help to improve your poems. But then, that's not necessarily the goal. Ostensibly it is, but there's a lot of other stuff going on that's about writing in a community, close reading each other's words, and an intimate sharing of experiences.
I do truly detest giving others feedback, mostly because it's really tough and time-consuming, and I don't think I've helped many other writers (despite my very best efforts). I just don't know what I'm doing. It's best done by a professional who works in the way you specify in your article.
Many many thanks for inspiring me today with this discussion.
Warm regards to you and all your readers!!
So wise, words to live by, and not just for workshops and poetry.
I've been throwing some of my poems through AI to see what it thinks of them. ChatGPT is pretty bad, but Claude AI is a decent assistant. There's a Bill Hader YouTube clip where he says people are great at telling you what doesn't work in your writing, but bad at telling you how to fix it. Claude AI is the same. Is it as good as my best reader friends? No. Is it better than a lot of students I took workshops with? Yes, because it tends to notice patterns in my poems that I may have missed and tells me where I could be more clear. And while it is biased towards narrative sometimes, it never really gives feedback like your "bad" list.